I think there's no doubt that most of us already know the main problems of the PvP Arena.
- The reward shop is lacking after the Calamity Armor failed the poll and most ornament kits failed its poll too.
- The optimal strategy to engage with the PvP Arena is to forfeit instantly. I've heard it earns you more points per hour than actually playing.
- The matchmaking takes too long for people who actually ranked up.
- It's fairly confusing to figure out how to get into a fight the first time you try the PvP Arena. I've seen popular PKers and OSRS streamers comment on this too.
- You can't see how many reward points you have while in the PvP Arena worlds.
I believe there's other problems with the PvP Arena that not many have thought about or noticed.
- There is significant downtime between fights due to several factors.
- The PvP Arena being on an alternate save file brings a lot of problems and limitations on its own. I'll talk more on this later.
I don't think the Calamity Armor failed the poll just because it's PvP. It failed because it's just a straight upgrade to Void Knight Armor, and also it gives PKers another thing to kill people in the Wilderness with.
However, if you remember the data analysis Jagex did about how players were voting on that poll, they found that all of those rewards still would have failed to pass the poll, even if it was completely restricted to only PvPers!
Nonetheless, I think nowadays it's not impossible to make a viable PvP reward shop, considering Last Man Standing and Bounty Hunter have fairly good reward shops now.
Not to mention, if I remember correctly, Bounty Hunter got a lot of those ornament kits that originally failed for the PvP Arena.
I know Jagex struggles to put anything into PvP reward shops. Maybe that climate could change if other areas of PvP get improved and the reputation of PvP in general improves. Or with the growing playerbase in general things might be more acceptable. Or with Jagex having a better grasp of what players like and don't like.
I think it's a solvable problem as long as Jagex commits to it.
There is no shortage of item suggestions for reward designs that could have gone into the PvP Arena. At the very least they could have done the "x number of wins" hat or cape.
I personally would love the return of the Duel Arena wins hat.
I also want to note that at this point, "only works in PvP" is a very ambiguous label. Right now, most Powered Staves do work in PvP, but not in the Wilderness. Autocast setting saving does work in PvP, but only partially works in the Wilderness.
But one thing players do understand, is that technically doesn't that just mean it's going to be powerful equipment in the Wilderness?
I think the Wilderness is so contentious, that Jagex may as well design Minigame-only equipment and stop using PvP as a blanket term for both safe PvP minigames and the Wilderness.
Though I would hesitate to see Jagex just add rewards to the PvP Arena, without fixing its broken, slow matchmaking and its downtime and the instant forfeiting first.
I've seen people quote somewhere that instant forfeiting actually earns more points than playing the game properly.
It makes sense, as actually fighting takes a couple of minutes to actually kill 650+ health in Saradomin Brews and food against your opponent.
Currently, you get 16 points for winning and 12 for losing.
If you're on a winning streak, you can get up to 26 points for winning.
Just look at how much this system rewards you for instantly forfeiting. You get 75% of what you would get for a single win.
Fixing this is fairly simple, just don't reward points for losing, right?
I would hesitate to see Jagex do this, because it can feel very demotivating for players who aren't doing as well to lose and spend that time for nothing.
There needs to be a balance between giving the loser some reward points, and not making losing the optimal strategy. And also it can't be viable for bots.
These parameters have pushed me to come up with a system where you get separate types of points for winning and losing.
Wins: Victor Points
Loss: Dueling Points (or "Learning Points")
- No points to the loser if they forfeit.
- No points in non-dedicated worlds.
- Victor Points can buy tradeable rewards, or be exchanged for 2 Dueling Points.
- Dueling Points can buy untradeable rewards, including combat XP (similar to Soul Wars and Pest Control).
- However, every untradeable reward that isn't XP requires at least 1 Victor Point in addition to Dueling Points. So you have to win at some point.
This system makes winning sometimes a requirement to obtain anything.
That in itself might be enough, but user "2nd base" on Discord also has another interesting concept:
Gain points equal to "damage/50" up to 14 points max.
I would make it max out at 10 reward points based on damage dealt.
Then. if you win, or get the kill early, you get that 10 instantly + the extra for going on a winning streak (+1 to +10).
Basically, this version rewards you more for actually trying in the fight. And if you win, you get an almost double bonus. It incentivizes you actually trying a lot more than not.
So if we combine these two systems:
- Win: 10-20 Victor Points (worth 20-40 Dueling Points)
- Loss: 0-10 Dueling Points depending on how much damage you dealt.
If you just sit there and do no damage, you're not getting anything, so you are literally forced to at least do a bare minimum.
And then to buy untradeables in the shop, you need at least 10 Victor Points and a number of Dueling Points.
You'd want to just win because it gets you the points the fastest.
This would surely make a lot of incentive to actually try in your fights and makes losing not an option, but not a complete waste of time, and winning is always the optimal strategy.
Compare to the PvP Arena today, where losing is the optimal strategy.
Although, maybe combining both of these systems wouldn't be necessary. Both already achieve the same thing.
The PvP Arena in its current state suffers from significant downtime.
When I say downtime, I talk about the time you spend in-between gameplay doing anything else. The Wilderness also has downtime whenever you die and have to regear and during the time you spend hopping worlds and roaming to find anyone or getting back to your location.
Castle Wars and Soul Wars have very little downtime because you respawn and go straight out of your spawn room again and straight into the gameplay.
In the PvP Arena, before you start a round you signed up for, you have to confirm that you want to actually use an inventory you set up beforehand, and confirm that you actually want to fight a fight you already signed up for.
Additionally when you finish a round in the PvP Arena, it kinda just leaves you sitting there and then you have to manually exit the arena and then manually go back into queueing.
The Duel Arena of old used to instantly put you back into the main lobby after the round was finished, which was faster.
It would be great if these down times could be minimized, like maybe having an "auto-requeueing" that just starts queueing you again automatically after your round ends.
In fact, if you want to just keep fighting repeatedly, there isn't much need to leave the arena. It could just reset your inventory and bring the next guy in.
... there is a Tournament Mode, which is meant to pair up to 64 fighters together. I don't really know how it operates, because nobody ever really uses it, unfortunately.
I also like this suggestion to have a "speed mode" where both players are given a limited amount of food, which would make rounds faster keeping the action going.
Hubatish suggests an inventory of 2 sharks, 2 karambwans, and 1 sara brew.
Although speaking on different "modes" for battle, I have a different idea I'll discuss later.
I have several issues with the PvP Arena existing on an alternate save file and I have many reasons to believe it would be better if the PvP Arena were tied to the main game instead.
So as we all know, the Duel Arena was deleted due to gambling addictions, staking, and RWT problems.
It was replaced with the PvP Arena, or Emir's Arena with the following restrictions:
- Can only be played on specific worlds.
- Alternate save file with free equipment, so everyone has the same stats and equipment
The goals were to replace the Duel Arena with a minigame that cannot be staked or gambled with, and also to provide a way for players to safely practice PvP without having to worry about risk.
This bit about it being a minigame for newer players to "learn and practice PvP" was a HUGE talking point of the PvP Arena during the its creation in the official OSRS PvP feedback Discord.
This talking point about bridging the "skill gap" in PvP is still a hot topic to this day.
The PvP Arena also features a ranking system intended to help players be matched up with players of similar skill, so they are not getting ganked by top-tier PvPers.
I know the alternate save file is something the community asked for in the official PvP Feedback Discord, but this is where I want to pull out the counterpoint that players are not game designers and PKers have a very tunnel visioned view of what makes PvP popular that clearly isn't working out for the Wilderness.
PvP Arena tied to the main game would be:
- Better for new players learning PvP
- Better for long-term player retention
- Better for players progression
- Better for keeping out bots
- Better for gameplay variety and experimentation that makes it less stale
- And it reduces "downtime"
- Account builds are pointless to someone who doesn't care about the Wilderness or playing a PvP build or owning an alt account
- Your account build changes arbitrarily every 2 weeks
- I can't just play the account build I want (my main) or experiment (if I wanted to make an alt or try different PKing builds like people make all those Wilderness videos about)
- Who is defining the "meta" of weapons allowed in the PvP Arena? The meta "of what"? The Wilderness? Bounty Hunter? PvP Worlds? I'm pretty sure the meta of all of these does not include max gear, because you have to risk in those.
- In the PvP Arena, I can't try out new items added to the main game even months or years later until the PvP Arena gets updated with those items.
- Lots of strong items are included in the item list, but stuff at random is excluded: Why?
- The gear search creates analysis paralysis (or decision paralysis or choice paralysis).
- The gear search being 1 vertical line of items is clunky compared to a bank or other "free gear" interfaces sometimes used in betas.
- A new player learning is not going to understand the gameplay of using a maxed account and maxed gear if you just give them an endgame account and it sets the (faulty) expectation that you can only enjoy PvP when you are maxed
- Everyone looks like bots and is confused on how to even start a match
- It has that "private server" vibe being set up this way with everyone looking like bots
Q: The PvP Arena was given an alternate save file with specific PKing related account builds so players could learn how to PK better with the kind of builds they would be using. Won't changing it to our main-game saves remove this?
How is main game save file better for new players learning PvP?
A: There are several problems with using an alternate save file for new players to learn PvP.
- Those players are learning how a completely different account build works and feels against people within a small range of identical builds. They are not learning how strong or weak their current account and equipment is against completely random other player's account builds and equipment.
Therefore, it reflects poorly against the randomness of what players might encounter in PvP outside of the arena, using stats that they don't have.
This is especially alien to the Wilderness, which presumably the PvP Arena is supposed to help new blood learn how PvP works for.
It does not let them measure whether or not they will or will not be viable with their current account stats, because they are given 99 stats for free and they are given equipment for free - some of which does not even exist in the main game with the Calamity Armor.
Soul Wars does a better job of teaching players about gear disparity and knowing what opponents you do or don't stand a chance against.
Being able to look at someone's equipment and know how hard you can hit against it, and how hard it can hit against you, is an important skill to have for the Wilderness. - Players are not going to experiment with random different weapons and items when we can just use all the best items for free.
By the way, I heard it's very strong to just be a ranged venge tank with Voidwaker and not worry so much about trybridding. - I want to play MY account's stats, not some other preset account stats I'm not used to for a build I am not making a second account for. The majority of new players to the game are not making "PKing alts" when they are new to the game. We are mains.
- With access to every item in the game, suddenly you have to do research on a lot of items you don't really own and are not really used to using.
This is what I mean by "analysis paralysis". This is a common term in game design where you give players way too much free choice, making it difficult to make a decision.
This does not just affect newer players.
Even though I'm a veteran player with a general idea of what's good in the game, I experience this analysis paralysis when confronted with a list of all the gear in the game because it's not as if I actually own all of that gear in the main game.
Even the default loadout gives me stuff where I don't even know what it does, like the Nightmare Staff, a weapon I never really cared to use in the main game and don't want to use because of fashionscape.
Even though a default loadout is offered, I think it's reasonable to assume that's not going to be "the best" to play with, so you'd be encouraged to research all the different options anyway.
I tend to believe that any default loadout given to me in any game is a "newbie trap", or that people who are used to the minigame are going to optimize against the default.
For a newer player getting into PvP, I can only imagine it's even more overwhelming.
It'd be much simpler if we just use equipment we're used to straight from our banks.
Q: How is main game save file better for long-term player retention?
A: In the current PvP Arena, because you have the same stats all the time, you have no reason to come back in the long run as you progress in the main-game.
However, if we could play the minigame with our main-game stuff, I might come back later when my account has leveled up or when I have earned stronger gear.
When I first unlocked special attack weapons, the first thing I wanted to do was try them in PvP. Every time I afford a new special attack weapon, I go back to PvP minigames to try it out. When I unlocked Ancient Magicks, that was the first thing I thought about. When I finally reached 85+ ranged, I wanted to try bridging for the first time.
Every new armor or weapon released in the game is technically a PvP update. Just look at any OSRS PKing YouTuber trying out new items in PvP Worlds and Bounty Hunter.
It takes Jagex months to add new weapons to the PvP Arena. So, the PvP Arena misses out on these "spikes" of activity where players come back to try out a new weapon or new armor in the activity.
Tying the minigame to main game systems creates motivation to progress in the main game to progress in the minigame.
Making it an alternate save file hurts the longevity of the minigame by removing this aspect entirely.
Q: How is main game save file better for player's progression?
A: By player's progression I'm talking about the way players "climb" the skill ladder of PvP skills.
Tying it to the main game creates a natural skill ladder and equipment ladder as you unlock more equipment in the main game.
Presuming the minigame becomes popular enough for the matchmaking to work some day, the matchmaking will sort you to fight against players who are more your level in both skill and the equipment they use.
If players had to use their own equipment, you will fight other players in "noob" equipment just like you, until you obtain better equipment or see what other players are using and eventually obtain it yourself.
Q: How is main game save file better for keeping out bots?
A: If players had to use their own equipment to do well, a person making a bot farm would have to equip all of their bots with expensive equipment that they probably don't want to risk getting deleted on their bot accounts.
This would hinder bots without really hindering real players.
Q: How is main game save file better for gameplay variety and experimentation?
A: Everyone getting free stats and equipment makes the gameplay get much staler much faster. Everyone has the same stats, and everyone can just choose the best equipment.
Additionally, Jagex has to manually add new items to the minigame for them to be available, which can take months or years.
This completely removes the variety of main-game gameplay where people fight with just whatever equipment they have in their bank. It removes the variety of fighting people at different levels of main-game account progression and not knowing how strong or weak your opponent might be.
Again, this is alien to the Wilderness where there is a variety of types of opponents you'd engage with between PKers and non-PKers.
I really wanted to try out the Confliction Gauntlets in PvP, but I guess the PvP Arena is not the place to play around with PvP.
Q: If the PvP Arena requires you to bring your own armor and weapons, won't that introduce gear and combat level disparity?
A: And what's wrong with having some disparity?
Isn't the whole Wilderness based on this? Doesn't this also exist in Castle Wars, Soul Wars, and Bounty Hunter?
Doesn't Last Man Standing also suffer from having a huge skill disparity (skill gap) anyway?
Isn't the ranked matchmaking supposed to eventually pit you against similarly powerful opponents anyway?
Aren't you supposed to do better in the game if you have access to better equipment or have higher combat stats?
That being said:
I really want the re-release of Minigame Hybrid Armor as a way to reduce gear disparity in all safe PvP minigames. Also magic should be low-cost or free in safe PvP minigames.
I talk about this more in the Castle Wars section of the video where gear disparity is an even bigger problem.
Q: Sure it needs better rewards, but what would those rewards be?
A: Well, surely there's all sorts of suggestion posts for things that we could have tried.
I'm not going to go into building a reward shop in this video or this document, but I absolutely have lists of tons of possibilities in my files.
When that discussion comes up, I will be happy to share lots of unique ideas I've compiled from myself and others!
I wager that even if you gave us a "PvP Arena Cape" that displays your PvP Arena Rank or your PvP Arena #of wins, that would be something that would motivate people to engage with it in the long term without affecting the economy or being a reason to be botted.
In 2010 RS2 Pre-EoC, we had the Duel Arena hat. It changed design as you got 100, 500, 1000 kills.
That Pre-EoC Duel Arena Hat actually did motivate me to play the Duel Arena more and I loved it as a status of the PvP I did and enjoyed.
There was also the Wilderness Hood that worked the same way - and that actually did motivate me to try PKing in the Wilderness (in Edgeville lol).
At the very least this kind of cosmetic status symbol is a no-brainer kind of reward for the PvP Arena.
I also like the suggestion to just make Calamity Armor an ornament kit for Void Knight Armor.
As I mentioned earlier, XP rewards could be a possibility.
Something like Castle Wars Supply Crates or Spoils of War or "generic money reward gated behind specific requirements" could be a possibility.
Something like my 6v6 PvP Arena reward shop design, where there are multiple ranks of reward shops with increasingly better rewards, would transfer very well to Emir's Arena reward shops to offer valuable, but unbottable rewards.
It is absolutely INSANE that the PvP Arena was released with no "real" rewards.
Imagine if any of the raids had all of the rewards fail the poll and Jagex decided to release the raids with no rewards anyway?
The PvP Arena has a lot of potential to be a great minigame, but it was neglected for 2 years after the rewards failed the poll.
Q: How does main game save file reduce downtime?
A: If you're just using your equipment from your bank, it's going to be a lot faster for you to gear up for the PvP Arena, skipping the entire set-up interfaces for 3 different account builds.
Though, if you already did that setup, the downtime is the same for both.
In my talk about how "Casual PvP in OSRS is Dead", I mentioned some sort of "Honor Duel" safe PvP minigame would probably be a lot of fun and great as a possible change to the PvP Arena.
"Honor PKing" is a major staple of Runescape PvP that I think has been majorly ignored by Jagex and the community.
It's easier for newer players to get into and I believe deserves a place in the PvP Arena, which was intended to be more open to newer blood.
I believe that many veteran players will find themselves having a preference for this style of PvP over nh bridging even if they're not just new players.
Honor Duels would have an emphasis on being shorter and faster and it would provide you food and potions while not allowing you to bring your own.
Honor Duels would use the same rules as Bounty Hunter. No protection prayers, no magical stuns, no phoenix necklace.
"No Honor Duels" or "Unrestricted Duels" would offer 1.5x more reward points, because the fights literally take longer.
It would also provide you with a set amount of free food and potions that's limited, but more than Honor Duel mode.
For the purposes of "being a good place to learn PvP" and "making PvP active" and "making this minigame active and have longevity to its gameplay" and "not be botted" and "not be boosted", I believe the following changes would be far better for the PvP Arena:
- Every NPC should tell you to just go to the main PvP Arena world with a quick-hop option like the Castle Wars NPCs at the Grand Exchange.
- PvP Arena Worlds should no longer use an alternate save file.
- Reduce gameplay downtime
- Fix the reward points
- Fix the reward shop
- Add "Honor Duels" and "Unrestricted Duels" as the two options for dueling styles.
- Rename it to the Duel Arena. It's nostalgic.